1 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:09,080 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:29,839 --> 00:00:25,189 hello and welcome to the skeptics are an 3 00:00:33,259 --> 00:00:29,849 episode number 244 for the 23rd of jun 4 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:33,269 2013 Richard Saunders here with you from 5 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:36,180 Sydney Australia being swept away by the 6 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:39,050 wind and the rain Cindy as being 7 00:00:44,990 --> 00:00:42,260 buffeted buffeted by all manner of 8 00:00:47,299 --> 00:00:45,000 storms and floods and rain and I think 9 00:00:49,549 --> 00:00:47,309 there's worse to come but before we get 10 00:00:50,780 --> 00:00:49,559 on to what's on this week so a big thank 11 00:00:53,869 --> 00:00:50,790 you to all those people who have been 12 00:00:57,979 --> 00:00:53,879 writing to me wishing me well with my 13 00:01:01,729 --> 00:00:57,989 ongoing sinus infection so many people 14 00:01:05,479 --> 00:01:01,739 encouraging me to take homeopathy well 15 00:01:07,999 --> 00:01:05,489 gee thanks people I'm certainly looking 16 00:01:10,399 --> 00:01:08,009 forward to getting better soon any way 17 00:01:13,310 --> 00:01:10,409 to kick off this week's show maynards 18 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:13,320 spooky action made out of myself well 19 00:01:18,999 --> 00:01:15,840 lucky enough to attend thee well the 20 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:19,009 sydney farewell party of Cosmos magazine 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:22,590 cosmos magazine is pulling up its stakes 22 00:01:28,399 --> 00:01:24,810 here in sydney and moving to melbourne 23 00:01:31,969 --> 00:01:28,409 may not interviews are departing editor 24 00:01:33,380 --> 00:01:31,979 off cosmos magazine wilson de silva now 25 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:33,390 we've been following the progress of 26 00:01:37,789 --> 00:01:35,310 Cosmos magazine very carefully over the 27 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:37,799 years at the australian skeptics and the 28 00:01:43,550 --> 00:01:40,460 skeptic zone a wonderful magazine and 29 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:43,560 well Wilson gives Maynard his 30 00:01:49,430 --> 00:01:45,530 impressions on the whole magazine 31 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:49,440 business scientific journalism following 32 00:01:52,850 --> 00:01:51,270 that it's a week in science without good 33 00:01:55,789 --> 00:01:52,860 friend dr. Paul Willis from the Royal 34 00:01:58,370 --> 00:01:55,799 Institution of Australia and this week I 35 00:02:00,440 --> 00:01:58,380 think he covers the the interesting news 36 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:00,450 I've sort of been following it as well 37 00:02:05,390 --> 00:02:03,390 and no doubt you may have heard this too 38 00:02:09,279 --> 00:02:05,400 but they have discovered a way to had 39 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:09,289 even more data onto a DVD some 40 00:02:14,929 --> 00:02:12,290 stupefyingly huge amount of data 41 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:14,939 interesting stuff and after that we have 42 00:02:21,490 --> 00:02:18,330 a guest editorial a guest editorial from 43 00:02:23,869 --> 00:02:21,500 sharon hill from doubtful news com 44 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:23,879 sharon wrote a very interesting piece 45 00:02:30,110 --> 00:02:26,700 called quoted and someone wants to tell 46 00:02:32,420 --> 00:02:30,120 me their paranormal story she says 47 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:32,430 one of the hazards of being a skeptic 48 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:35,370 about paranormal subjects is that those 49 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:36,959 who have had their own personal 50 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:39,810 experiences or investigated a peculiar 51 00:02:46,100 --> 00:02:43,140 case like to play stumped the skeptic 52 00:02:48,259 --> 00:02:46,110 that editorial our guest editorial who's 53 00:02:50,330 --> 00:02:48,269 sharon hill coming up a bit later on in 54 00:02:53,990 --> 00:02:50,340 the skeptic zone and to round off the 55 00:02:56,690 --> 00:02:54,000 show it's dr. rachy reports dr. Richie 56 00:02:58,880 --> 00:02:56,700 will be talking to dr. david hawks who 57 00:03:01,699 --> 00:02:58,890 is a medical virologist at the flory 58 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:01,709 institute in melbourne now dr. Hawks 59 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:04,170 will be talking to dr. Richie about the 60 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:07,230 HPV vaccine a fascinating interview a 61 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:09,000 fascinating interview and a bit strange 62 00:03:14,300 --> 00:03:11,220 because as we discovered during the 63 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:14,310 course of the interview dr. Hawks dog is 64 00:03:19,309 --> 00:03:16,560 chewing on some cables or playing near 65 00:03:21,380 --> 00:03:19,319 the computer so you'll hear some pops 66 00:03:24,199 --> 00:03:21,390 and squeaks and scrapes along the way 67 00:03:26,509 --> 00:03:24,209 please forgive those it's worth it just 68 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:26,519 to hear the interview anyway with the 69 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:28,290 rain oh no here it comes again with the 70 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:30,209 rain pelting outside the window it's 71 00:03:37,129 --> 00:03:33,650 time for me to run downstairs have a 72 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:37,139 curry curried vegetables with peanuts 73 00:03:43,729 --> 00:03:41,130 and sesame oil if that doesn't knock 74 00:03:46,069 --> 00:03:43,739 this sinus infection on the head nothing 75 00:04:02,460 --> 00:03:46,079 will well I'm doing that I hope you 76 00:04:11,030 --> 00:04:07,660 here's may not spooky action at the 77 00:04:15,780 --> 00:04:13,920 well people I'm at one of these dues 78 00:04:17,610 --> 00:04:15,790 that are they do that you want to go to 79 00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:17,620 the number one on the Sydney social 80 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:20,070 calendar tonight is the cosmos is 81 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:22,840 pinging off from Sydney launch is that 82 00:04:26,460 --> 00:04:24,370 what it is how do we describe this ten 83 00:04:28,710 --> 00:04:26,470 years of that we're here for Wilson 84 00:04:30,510 --> 00:04:28,720 that's right it's um it's the end of the 85 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:30,520 Sydney chapter of cosmos and onto the 86 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:33,460 Melbourne chapter where the our partners 87 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:36,730 Alan and Lizzy Finkel our have bought it 88 00:04:42,450 --> 00:04:39,970 off us Kylie Ahern and I will service 89 00:04:44,250 --> 00:04:42,460 will establish that card not quite ten 90 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:44,260 years eight years almost nine years ago 91 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:46,240 so you'll let the larry flynt of science 92 00:04:50,010 --> 00:04:48,010 publishing it in australia is that right 93 00:04:52,230 --> 00:04:50,020 only I'm not in a wheelchair and we 94 00:04:53,820 --> 00:04:52,240 don't without that revealing well it has 95 00:04:55,350 --> 00:04:53,830 to be said just had a shot at you 96 00:04:57,180 --> 00:04:55,360 everything it has to be said we are 97 00:04:58,950 --> 00:04:57,190 still the only site in the only magazine 98 00:05:01,710 --> 00:04:58,960 in the world were published an erect 99 00:05:03,150 --> 00:05:01,720 penis on the cover and at what however 100 00:05:05,909 --> 00:05:03,160 it wasn't a human species it was a 101 00:05:07,770 --> 00:05:05,919 beetle penis and we have no we and we 102 00:05:10,409 --> 00:05:07,780 have published we have published breasts 103 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:10,419 always in a discussion of course of 104 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:12,550 science and therefore you know people 105 00:05:16,050 --> 00:05:13,990 say hey you know this is not racy so 106 00:05:17,310 --> 00:05:16,060 answers on Tracy it's very sexy it's 107 00:05:18,390 --> 00:05:17,320 full of interesting stuff you just have 108 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:18,400 to know what you look for and it's full 109 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:19,750 of controversy what's the most 110 00:05:22,830 --> 00:05:21,250 controversial thing you've been involved 111 00:05:26,510 --> 00:05:22,840 in publishing during the history of 112 00:05:31,830 --> 00:05:26,520 Cosmos so far look when Simon Singh got 113 00:05:34,710 --> 00:05:31,840 done for for the attack on the the 114 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:34,720 chiropractor's he wrote an article for 115 00:05:38,159 --> 00:05:36,580 The Guardian that was considered 116 00:05:39,779 --> 00:05:38,169 libelous and he spent a quite a bit of 117 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:39,789 money in defending that we thought it 118 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:42,850 was an important issue to show that 119 00:05:47,159 --> 00:05:45,610 science writers can write something that 120 00:05:49,740 --> 00:05:47,169 is critical at but unfortunately under 121 00:05:51,090 --> 00:05:49,750 British libel laws they can get done but 122 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:51,100 you can't get done on the Australian 123 00:05:55,379 --> 00:05:53,410 laws in the same sort of saying the same 124 00:05:58,350 --> 00:05:55,389 thing so we'll republish the article and 125 00:05:59,550 --> 00:05:58,360 when we proposed at the simon he said 126 00:06:01,140 --> 00:05:59,560 they actually been approached by some 127 00:06:03,830 --> 00:06:01,150 other blogs so we turn it into a 128 00:06:06,930 --> 00:06:03,840 national international day of action and 129 00:06:08,850 --> 00:06:06,940 cosmos led the publication of that 130 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:08,860 article along with a thousand other 131 00:06:13,150 --> 00:06:10,810 blogs around the world and we all said 132 00:06:15,610 --> 00:06:13,160 so sue us 133 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:15,620 and have you actually got many cease and 134 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:18,080 desist letters at the cosmos over the 135 00:06:22,630 --> 00:06:19,610 years now we haven't in fact like most 136 00:06:24,820 --> 00:06:22,640 science magazines we get theories of 137 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:24,830 physics theories of you know that 138 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:26,270 explains why the speed of light should 139 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:28,310 be X and you know but basically it's 140 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:30,050 lots of fun to go through them my 141 00:06:34,300 --> 00:06:31,520 favorite one was the one that was 142 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:34,310 written in in red very closely spaced 143 00:06:38,770 --> 00:06:36,550 both sides of the paper and in Spanish 144 00:06:41,500 --> 00:06:38,780 and you put all these in a box somewhere 145 00:06:43,300 --> 00:06:41,510 is a magic box we used to you know it 146 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:43,310 was lost him one of the ships of 147 00:06:48,670 --> 00:06:46,490 officers it was lost in to me to my you 148 00:06:49,930 --> 00:06:48,680 know I really missed that because there 149 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:49,940 was some really freaky stuff in that 150 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:52,370 some stuff from Romania from and then 151 00:06:55,540 --> 00:06:53,720 this one in which is written in Spanish 152 00:06:58,960 --> 00:06:55,550 and luckily I can't read spanish the 153 00:07:00,940 --> 00:06:58,970 what it said in spanish was it very much 154 00:07:03,340 --> 00:07:00,950 enjoyed your series on the planets I'm 155 00:07:05,980 --> 00:07:03,350 wondering if you can help me I visited a 156 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:05,990 planet recently and here's the 157 00:07:08,710 --> 00:07:07,010 description I was wondering if you could 158 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:08,720 tell me which planet it might be and it 159 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:10,850 was a in our solar system or not as far 160 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:12,410 as I can tell yes it was instead of 161 00:07:17,020 --> 00:07:15,170 feather the able to help him yes I think 162 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:17,030 it was a her I think it was um it was 163 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:19,850 Mars but look you know there's been lots 164 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:22,250 of fun the controversy yes we've taken 165 00:07:27,490 --> 00:07:24,770 strong positions on pro nuclear power 166 00:07:30,370 --> 00:07:27,500 but anti-nuclear weapons we've been very 167 00:07:32,650 --> 00:07:30,380 strongly on climate change we get 168 00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:32,660 attacked a lot about climate change and 169 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:35,360 some people object that we don't publish 170 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:37,160 their letters well guess what we're not 171 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:39,500 the ABC we're a private organization if 172 00:07:44,260 --> 00:07:41,930 your letters is ridiculous and you don't 173 00:07:45,820 --> 00:07:44,270 get the point and you refuse to use 174 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:45,830 facts in your argument you don't get 175 00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:48,410 published vaccination we've run strong 176 00:07:51,909 --> 00:07:49,940 stories and I vaccination and we're 177 00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:51,919 attack in fact we'll try it where they 178 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:54,230 try to take us to the Press Council over 179 00:07:59,510 --> 00:07:57,210 the issue and failed 180 00:08:01,820 --> 00:07:59,520 and yeah we've been very very more than 181 00:08:04,309 --> 00:08:01,830 one line that it's continuously we've 182 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:04,319 continuously run is that we are pro 183 00:08:08,390 --> 00:08:06,020 science to the exclusion of all else 184 00:08:09,650 --> 00:08:08,400 Wilson what's the most satisfying thing 185 00:08:11,659 --> 00:08:09,660 and most of us will never experience 186 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:11,669 this being a publisher of a magazine 187 00:08:15,980 --> 00:08:12,930 what's the thing that is really 188 00:08:19,460 --> 00:08:15,990 satisfying about that there are many 189 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:19,470 many things getting letters from kids in 190 00:08:24,559 --> 00:08:22,560 their teens who say that they've decided 191 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:24,569 to do science because of you that that 192 00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:28,530 is moving to get a birthday card on the 193 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:30,720 7th anniversary chose a year ago from a 194 00:08:34,699 --> 00:08:32,610 subscriber who says I have just loved 195 00:08:37,430 --> 00:08:34,709 your magazine so very much I thought it 196 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:37,440 was important for me to send your birth 197 00:08:40,850 --> 00:08:39,450 eka not lovely little moments like that 198 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:40,860 talking to subscribers when you're there 199 00:08:44,810 --> 00:08:42,810 at light at night editing something and 200 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:44,820 you take a call and subscriber and how 201 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:47,370 how they tell you how much it means to 202 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:49,830 them that sort of stuff you can't buy 203 00:08:55,190 --> 00:08:52,050 that sort of stuff that's real it's um 204 00:08:59,870 --> 00:08:55,200 it's it's it just comes from the heart 205 00:09:01,940 --> 00:08:59,880 and I I will walk away knowing that we 206 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:01,950 did this we've we've you know one of the 207 00:09:05,090 --> 00:09:03,450 things you hope in life is that you have 208 00:09:07,910 --> 00:09:05,100 an impact and I think we've had an 209 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:07,920 impact you get these you know for 210 00:09:11,569 --> 00:09:09,480 example we have a section which began 211 00:09:14,180 --> 00:09:11,579 about five years ago called wearing the 212 00:09:16,730 --> 00:09:14,190 cosmos it's a section where we published 213 00:09:19,519 --> 00:09:16,740 pictures of people in weird bizarre 214 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:19,529 places holding up copies of cosmos that 215 00:09:24,260 --> 00:09:22,560 they're reading we didn't start that we 216 00:09:25,490 --> 00:09:24,270 just started sending us that and then we 217 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:25,500 thought well let's start publishing it 218 00:09:28,460 --> 00:09:26,880 and of course as soon as we published it 219 00:09:31,340 --> 00:09:28,470 more and more and more that's a regular 220 00:09:34,340 --> 00:09:31,350 section that shows the kind of love that 221 00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:34,350 people have for the magazine and I kind 222 00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:36,240 of you kind of wonder why is it I mean 223 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:37,350 it's just a science magazine but it's 224 00:09:42,650 --> 00:09:40,290 not though we we do we are literally in 225 00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:42,660 our approach but we also take the piss 226 00:09:46,010 --> 00:09:44,190 out of ourselves we also you know have a 227 00:09:48,319 --> 00:09:46,020 bit of a laugh and I think people get 228 00:09:50,329 --> 00:09:48,329 that sort of literary high-minded yet 229 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:50,339 able to laugh at ourselves I think they 230 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:52,110 they really get that so that's cool 231 00:09:55,610 --> 00:09:54,420 that's probably the best Wilson what do 232 00:09:56,810 --> 00:09:55,620 you think you'd like to go into you want 233 00:09:58,880 --> 00:09:56,820 to do more publishing you want to 234 00:10:00,050 --> 00:09:58,890 continue in the science field as I said 235 00:10:01,579 --> 00:10:00,060 since everything's moving to melbourne 236 00:10:03,319 --> 00:10:01,589 there would you there's a lot of gaps in 237 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:03,329 the australian magazine market and the 238 00:10:05,889 --> 00:10:03,649 whole 239 00:10:07,239 --> 00:10:05,899 industry is in turmoil at the moment is 240 00:10:08,859 --> 00:10:07,249 it a time to go and try and start 241 00:10:11,499 --> 00:10:08,869 something was the time to sit back and 242 00:10:15,309 --> 00:10:11,509 just see what happens I've just had a 243 00:10:17,410 --> 00:10:15,319 little girl and a twix egg weeks old so 244 00:10:18,340 --> 00:10:17,420 I'm not keen to rush into anything I 245 00:10:21,669 --> 00:10:18,350 certainly don't want to start a business 246 00:10:24,129 --> 00:10:21,679 I'm probably going to sit back and 247 00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:24,139 either getting back into films or maybe 248 00:10:28,239 --> 00:10:26,959 write some books I mean complaining 249 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:28,249 about not having the time to write a 250 00:10:32,290 --> 00:10:30,170 book for ages well now I'm going to have 251 00:10:33,699 --> 00:10:32,300 some time as you look around the 252 00:10:35,319 --> 00:10:33,709 Australian publishing industry is there 253 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:35,329 is there any comment you'd like to make 254 00:10:38,319 --> 00:10:36,980 on it is is there any obvious mistakes 255 00:10:39,429 --> 00:10:38,329 that they're making it that they can't 256 00:10:42,009 --> 00:10:39,439 see they're running into a brick wall 257 00:10:45,009 --> 00:10:42,019 it's not it's not just the publishers 258 00:10:47,350 --> 00:10:45,019 false you know it's the market is 259 00:10:48,629 --> 00:10:47,360 changing so dramatically there are three 260 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:48,639 things happening at the same time 261 00:10:52,509 --> 00:10:50,929 advertising is disappearing one of the 262 00:10:54,730 --> 00:10:52,519 things that we people relied on so much 263 00:10:55,989 --> 00:10:54,740 is disappearing into areas that where 264 00:11:01,299 --> 00:10:55,999 once they might have got a hundred 265 00:11:02,769 --> 00:11:01,309 dollars per pair of eyes or but now 266 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:02,779 they're getting like one-tenth of one 267 00:11:08,169 --> 00:11:04,970 cent because everything is moving online 268 00:11:11,470 --> 00:11:08,179 so the model the financial model on 269 00:11:13,569 --> 00:11:11,480 advertising side is changing the at the 270 00:11:15,579 --> 00:11:13,579 same time that the platforms are coming 271 00:11:17,079 --> 00:11:15,589 in that people have to deploy content 272 00:11:19,689 --> 00:11:17,089 not just in print which is one platform 273 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:19,699 but a number of platforms and even 274 00:11:23,769 --> 00:11:21,170 within the Android platform you have 275 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:23,779 five different flavors so theoretically 276 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:25,490 you should have to republish your 277 00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:27,110 material and redesign it five different 278 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:30,079 times just for Android you know ipad at 279 00:11:35,980 --> 00:11:33,170 least it's one these are so there are 280 00:11:39,309 --> 00:11:35,990 tectonic shifts happening in publishing 281 00:11:41,530 --> 00:11:39,319 that hack actually make it very very 282 00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:41,540 hard to invest your money in that area 283 00:11:44,739 --> 00:11:43,040 and know that you're gonna get a return 284 00:11:46,299 --> 00:11:44,749 so it's not just a case that publishers 285 00:11:47,410 --> 00:11:46,309 are making the wrong decision what is 286 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:47,420 happening is if you make the wrong 287 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:49,370 decisions publisher your margin of error 288 00:11:54,039 --> 00:11:51,620 is so thin now because a advertising 289 00:11:56,079 --> 00:11:54,049 disappearing and there's these you know 290 00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:56,089 tsunamis of technological change coming 291 00:11:58,530 --> 00:11:57,920 and people don't know how they're going 292 00:12:00,990 --> 00:11:58,540 to 293 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:01,000 but look my suspicion is it's actually a 294 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:02,710 really good time to invest in publishing 295 00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:05,800 I think that the technology is going to 296 00:12:09,660 --> 00:12:07,750 provide us more opportunity to figure 297 00:12:12,330 --> 00:12:09,670 out how to get to people with engaging 298 00:12:14,430 --> 00:12:12,340 content it's just that until we figure 299 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:14,440 out the models are pay it's going to be 300 00:12:18,510 --> 00:12:17,200 a bit you know bit tense and what do you 301 00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:18,520 think of the standard of science 302 00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:24,940 journalism in Australia I like I like it 303 00:12:30,540 --> 00:12:26,350 when people laugh at the beginning of an 304 00:12:33,180 --> 00:12:30,550 answer it is patchy there are some 305 00:12:35,610 --> 00:12:33,190 places where it is excellent and there 306 00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:35,620 are places where it is perfunctory if it 307 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:39,280 exists at all i think that the kind of 308 00:12:42,390 --> 00:12:40,810 professionalism that we see in science 309 00:12:45,180 --> 00:12:42,400 journalism in the united states and 310 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:45,190 canada we don't see much of it here in 311 00:12:49,050 --> 00:12:47,290 fact i've written about this in the 312 00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:49,060 walkley magazine for journalists about 313 00:12:55,890 --> 00:12:52,900 how bad it can get in australia i mean i 314 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:55,900 remember when i told a friend that I was 315 00:12:59,100 --> 00:12:57,370 leaving I used to work at what is a 316 00:13:02,190 --> 00:12:59,110 foreign correspondent and I was reading 317 00:13:04,710 --> 00:13:02,200 the press gallery in Canberra to go and 318 00:13:06,030 --> 00:13:04,720 work in a science magazine he said why 319 00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:06,040 would you piss your career down the 320 00:13:10,620 --> 00:13:07,870 toilet like that and that was the 321 00:13:12,090 --> 00:13:10,630 attitude and tool in many many places 322 00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:12,100 still the attitude among us journalist 323 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:14,260 it isn't respected science journalism 324 00:13:18,030 --> 00:13:15,970 and I think until we have respect for 325 00:13:19,770 --> 00:13:18,040 science journalism instead of something 326 00:13:20,850 --> 00:13:19,780 like political reporting or financial 327 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:20,860 reporting so we have a respect for 328 00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:22,690 science or even sports reporting sport 329 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:23,920 the sports reporting gets all this 330 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:25,660 respect for something that in the end 331 00:13:30,450 --> 00:13:27,850 doesn't really matter it really doesn't 332 00:13:31,770 --> 00:13:30,460 I get this in a newspaper you have the 333 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:31,780 soccer writer and you have the rugby 334 00:13:34,770 --> 00:13:33,250 writer and you have even the union 335 00:13:36,690 --> 00:13:34,780 writer and you have the where's the 336 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:36,700 geology rider exactly anything in 337 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:38,770 science you're supposed to be one person 338 00:13:44,730 --> 00:13:41,410 usually who has to cover all the 339 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:44,740 sciences genetics to cosmology and oh by 340 00:13:48,810 --> 00:13:46,210 the way if nothing's happening a science 341 00:13:50,460 --> 00:13:48,820 can you help out with something else all 342 00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:50,470 right so yeah so--but you think there is 343 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:52,390 hope we've got to end on a hopeful note 344 00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:53,650 here there is hope I think there is 345 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:55,320 actually hope this is a really good time 346 00:13:58,639 --> 00:13:56,610 if 347 00:13:59,930 --> 00:13:58,649 the technology is making it possible for 348 00:14:01,990 --> 00:13:59,940 us to reach people in a way that 349 00:14:04,190 --> 00:14:02,000 previously you couldn't you just gotta 350 00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:04,200 publishers have got to just hang on and 351 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:05,760 stick the quality the one thing about 352 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:08,910 the digital revolution that seems to be 353 00:14:13,819 --> 00:14:11,250 holding true is that if you were doing 354 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:13,829 really crappy stuff you you won't last 355 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:16,050 now because it's there's so much stuff 356 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:17,490 around that people are gravitating 357 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:20,250 towards good what you know that by good 358 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:21,510 I mean it could be you might be doing 359 00:14:25,550 --> 00:14:23,250 celebrity stuff but is it good that's 360 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:25,560 are you good at celebrity so I only I 361 00:14:29,810 --> 00:14:28,470 think only a few publishers will be 362 00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:29,820 state left standing at the end of it 363 00:14:33,710 --> 00:14:31,980 those that produce quality stuff so why 364 00:14:36,829 --> 00:14:33,720 not start your business producing 365 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:36,839 quality it's worked for us mmm now 366 00:14:40,519 --> 00:14:38,180 there's a number of riders out there 367 00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:40,529 that you work in the celebrity field in 368 00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:42,000 the news field that get a lot of 369 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:43,950 attraction to their name and their blogs 370 00:14:47,569 --> 00:14:45,930 by creating controversy there's that 371 00:14:49,310 --> 00:14:47,579 necessarily work in science or do people 372 00:14:52,699 --> 00:14:49,320 not respect you if you do that no I 373 00:14:54,740 --> 00:14:52,709 don't respect you controversy where it's 374 00:14:57,710 --> 00:14:54,750 based on science is okay so we ran a 375 00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:57,720 piece on a cover story on mass delusions 376 00:15:02,000 --> 00:14:59,399 which was basically about why people 377 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:02,010 believe in crazy stuff and that did 378 00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:03,810 really really well what was funny for me 379 00:15:09,350 --> 00:15:05,670 was that the people who believe in crazy 380 00:15:11,269 --> 00:15:09,360 stuff bullet to they work at this fire 381 00:15:14,449 --> 00:15:11,279 they get a double dip yeah yeah double 382 00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:14,459 dip so that was intriguing but yeah we 383 00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:16,230 were we were really rubbing their noses 384 00:15:18,590 --> 00:15:17,519 in it but yet they bought it and they 385 00:15:21,199 --> 00:15:18,600 wanted to write to us and saying hello 386 00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:21,209 it's not quite as you say um but not as 387 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:23,240 you know sir chasing controlscontrol 388 00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:25,290 controversy for its own sake never 389 00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,870 achieves anything if for example when we 390 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:30,000 did a cover story on thorium reactors 391 00:15:34,819 --> 00:15:32,730 which are a new potential nuclear I'm 392 00:15:36,199 --> 00:15:34,829 bit of a fan of that I'm of the the 393 00:15:38,509 --> 00:15:36,209 Indians and the Indonesians could 394 00:15:40,069 --> 00:15:38,519 actually beat us to this exactly so the 395 00:15:41,630 --> 00:15:40,079 particular type of thorium were talking 396 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:41,640 about it accelerated Rivlin subcritical 397 00:15:45,410 --> 00:15:44,190 nuclear reactors these ones bernal 398 00:15:47,540 --> 00:15:45,420 nuclear waste is part of the process 399 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:47,550 this is really exciting and we went 400 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:49,610 really really hard saying things like 401 00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,810 coal-fired power stations need to be 402 00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,339 shut down we should not build another 403 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:55,199 coal-fired power station in Australia 404 00:15:59,810 --> 00:15:57,570 all the world there's another 500 plan 405 00:16:01,550 --> 00:15:59,820 to be built in China in the next 15 406 00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:01,560 years and we said when you have 407 00:16:05,490 --> 00:16:03,630 technology like this which burns all 408 00:16:07,230 --> 00:16:05,500 nuclear waste and generates power 409 00:16:09,090 --> 00:16:07,240 why on earth would you create another 410 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:09,100 coal-fired power station when you know 411 00:16:14,130 --> 00:16:10,930 that the people who live near qualified 412 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:14,140 power stations have high death rates 413 00:16:18,570 --> 00:16:16,510 higher rates of cancer are exposed to 414 00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:18,580 more radiation because of the coal ash 415 00:16:23,550 --> 00:16:20,860 flying off and guess what they kill 416 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:23,560 26,000 people a year by putting by the 417 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:25,120 admitting that stuff like that gun kelly 418 00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:26,650 into the atmosphere and I asked 419 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:28,060 breathing it in and having heart attacks 420 00:16:32,490 --> 00:16:29,710 earlier than we were otherwise might 421 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:32,500 have well and I bet you got mail about 422 00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,250 that oh yeah we got a lot of mail well 423 00:16:40,050 --> 00:16:38,560 are you actually on radio once somebody 424 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:40,060 said are you seriously saying we should 425 00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:42,010 shut down coal-fired power stations was 426 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:44,680 a commercial radio station I said yes I 427 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:46,480 need know how to react to that because 428 00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:48,310 he expect me saying well no of course oh 429 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:52,480 no no no yes shut them all down now well 430 00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:53,710 I hope you don't get as much controversy 431 00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:55,990 just with an eight-year-old kid no 432 00:17:00,060 --> 00:16:57,700 absolutely not okay well look thank you 433 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:00,070 enjoy your quiet life for a while anyway 434 00:17:15,679 --> 00:17:01,450 thanks very much you wait to live a 435 00:17:20,309 --> 00:17:18,270 hi there this is ben Radford from 436 00:17:22,980 --> 00:17:20,319 skeptical inquirer magazine the monster 437 00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,990 talk podcast Discovery News skeptical 438 00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:24,880 countries is and elsewhere you may also 439 00:17:27,809 --> 00:17:26,020 know me as the guy that's all the 440 00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:27,819 chupacabra mystery I want to let you 441 00:17:31,620 --> 00:17:29,080 know about a cool new board game I 442 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:31,630 created cult undead apocalypse war the 443 00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:33,970 Damned undead apocalypse has vampires 444 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:36,130 and werewolves and zombies all battling 445 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:37,990 it out in a post-apocalyptic world with 446 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:39,850 humans so it's sort of like Mad Max 447 00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:42,130 meets the walking dead so if you're 448 00:17:46,170 --> 00:17:43,840 interested in zombies and werewolves and 449 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:46,180 vampires or board games of any kind or 450 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:48,490 my work please check it out thanks i 451 00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:51,370 appreciate undead apocalypse the 452 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:53,350 fast-paced board game where you control 453 00:18:00,090 --> 00:17:57,010 armies of zombies vampires werewolves 454 00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:00,100 and humans in Earth's final war of the 455 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:03,070 damned learn more at undead board game 456 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:06,130 com or support us on kickstarter com 457 00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:17,650 before july eighth welcome to awaken 458 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:20,620 science from our iOS this week new mega 459 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:24,190 data storage baby IQ and infectious 460 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:34,540 we may soon have petabytes size storage 461 00:18:42,010 --> 00:18:37,250 disks the equivalent of ten point six 462 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:42,020 years of HDTV until now storage disks 463 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:44,210 have been limited by how small the point 464 00:18:48,910 --> 00:18:46,610 of a light beam could be preventing 465 00:18:51,490 --> 00:18:48,920 disks from being written at a nanometer 466 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:51,500 scale but now a new technique can 467 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:53,170 produce a light spot that is one 468 00:18:58,660 --> 00:18:56,510 ten-thousandth of a human hair wide this 469 00:19:00,580 --> 00:18:58,670 technology allows more data to be 470 00:19:03,130 --> 00:19:00,590 written onto disks with incredible 471 00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:03,140 accuracy and could lead to huge amounts 472 00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:07,070 of storage on a single disk a new 473 00:19:12,010 --> 00:19:08,780 procedure may increase the safety of 474 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:12,020 therapies using stem cells when stem 475 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:13,730 cells are converted to other cell types 476 00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:16,970 for therapy some may take on a form that 477 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:19,760 can produce tumors the new procedure 478 00:19:24,340 --> 00:19:22,310 identifies these aberrant cells and 479 00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,350 removes them using antibodies or 480 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:27,200 bacterial toxins application of this 481 00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:28,970 technique has been shown to prevent the 482 00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:31,640 development of tumors in mice you're 483 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:33,950 listening to a week in science from our 484 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:37,250 iOS and now for size headlines in 30 485 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:39,890 seconds visual cues from your homeland 486 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:42,890 such as faces or cultural images make it 487 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:44,480 more difficult to speak a second 488 00:19:49,060 --> 00:19:47,210 language weight gain an increase in head 489 00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:49,070 size in the first month of life is 490 00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:51,430 linked to IQ at early school age 491 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:53,600 pesticide levels which are considered to 492 00:19:58,660 --> 00:19:56,450 be environmentally safe still reduce 493 00:20:01,090 --> 00:19:58,670 aquatic invertebrates biodiversity by 494 00:20:03,010 --> 00:20:01,100 thirty percent and a technique for 495 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:03,020 producing high-quality holographic 496 00:20:08,610 --> 00:20:04,930 displays is a step towards 497 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:08,620 three-dimensional TVs without glasses 498 00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:10,970 Swedish researchers have found that 499 00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:13,360 applause spreads like a disease 500 00:20:18,130 --> 00:20:15,680 individuals in an audience pick up the 501 00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:18,140 clapping infection by hearing the volume 502 00:20:22,780 --> 00:20:20,540 of applause rather than directly seeing 503 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:22,790 their neighbors clapping the clapping 504 00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:24,890 infection will spread until at least one 505 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:26,630 individual decides that they have 506 00:20:30,610 --> 00:20:28,490 clapped for long enough these 507 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:30,620 characteristics of applause mean that 508 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:32,690 there is no correlation between the 509 00:20:40,049 --> 00:20:35,090 duration of applause and the quality of 510 00:20:44,649 --> 00:20:42,430 don't forget science behind the 511 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:44,659 headlines this Tuesday where we'll be 512 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:47,210 investigating personal genetic profiling 513 00:20:51,850 --> 00:20:49,490 will be live streaming the event so you 514 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:51,860 can watch from wherever you may be or 515 00:20:57,580 --> 00:20:53,690 join us at the science exchange in 516 00:21:00,909 --> 00:20:57,590 Adelaide on jun 25 details at our iOS 517 00:21:03,220 --> 00:21:00,919 org dot a you that's been the highlights 518 00:21:05,409 --> 00:21:03,230 of another big week in science for more 519 00:21:09,610 --> 00:21:05,419 information and other science news check 520 00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:09,620 out the are isles website RI a u.s. dot 521 00:21:15,789 --> 00:21:12,799 org a you where you can also sign up for 522 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:15,799 notifications of future episodes you can 523 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:17,690 follow a week in science on twitter 524 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:21,529 using the hashtag weekend sigh i'm paul 525 00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:24,020 willis and on behalf of the Arias team 526 00:21:41,620 --> 00:21:38,750 see you next week greetings skeptics 527 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:41,630 them mrs. do you know what to do in 528 00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:45,049 August come to Stockholm Sweden and meet 529 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:48,590 astronaut a special assignment activist 530 00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:52,730 hey Lee Stevens stats guru upon screams 531 00:21:59,230 --> 00:21:56,000 linsley undercover health journalist an 532 00:22:03,010 --> 00:21:59,240 abyssea p and many more at the 15th 533 00:22:05,710 --> 00:22:03,020 european skeptics Congress friday the 534 00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:05,720 twenty-third to sunday the 25th of 535 00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:09,350 august in stockholm sweden what a 15th 536 00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:13,520 european skeptics carcass www wo 537 00:22:16,750 --> 00:22:33,620 www euro skeptics gone dot org 538 00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,930 one of the hazards of being a skeptic 539 00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:38,640 about paranormal subjects is that those 540 00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:39,990 who have had their own personal 541 00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:42,240 experiences or investigated a peculiar 542 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:45,230 case like to play stumped the skeptic oh 543 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:48,330 you are a skeptic well I have a story 544 00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:51,450 for you and then I get an earful how do 545 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:53,280 you explain that they conclude with 546 00:22:58,610 --> 00:22:55,500 added self satisfaction of a story well 547 00:23:01,910 --> 00:22:58,620 told I can't and I'm not going to try to 548 00:23:04,550 --> 00:23:01,920 explain it unless it's a well-researched 549 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:04,560 case which has published documentation I 550 00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:07,410 can't say anything about it it's just a 551 00:23:13,010 --> 00:23:10,440 story if I accept it every story I heard 552 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:13,020 at face value every day I'd be broken in 553 00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:15,090 a mess of trouble I'm not accusing 554 00:23:21,050 --> 00:23:18,120 people of lying I'm saying I wasn't 555 00:23:22,550 --> 00:23:21,060 there it was not my experience so I'm 556 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:22,560 not going to speculate about what you 557 00:23:26,990 --> 00:23:25,260 saw or what may have happened there is 558 00:23:29,810 --> 00:23:27,000 nothing to go on when cornered with 559 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:29,820 these stories I can't fact check or 560 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:32,610 confirm I can't pull an explanation out 561 00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:34,830 of a hat I have no place to go with them 562 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:38,190 except to say interesting paranormal 563 00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,110 books are primarily these types of 564 00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:42,600 stories it's unusual for a case to be 565 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:44,460 well investigated compared to the 566 00:23:48,140 --> 00:23:46,470 thousands of stories that are related 567 00:23:50,510 --> 00:23:48,150 from witnesses or references from other 568 00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:50,520 sources too many stories aren't 569 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:53,070 referenced at all I was recently reading 570 00:23:57,650 --> 00:23:55,170 a book on local monsters and some 571 00:23:59,540 --> 00:23:57,660 accounts lacked accurate locations there 572 00:24:02,720 --> 00:23:59,550 was no town of that name or there were 573 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:02,730 no details useless that is such poor 574 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:04,410 quality evidence it might as well be 575 00:24:10,130 --> 00:24:07,080 discarded this is more likely wrong than 576 00:24:12,140 --> 00:24:10,140 helpful anecdotes do not necessarily 577 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:12,150 garner strength in numbers not for 578 00:24:17,420 --> 00:24:15,180 paranormal subjects a pile of unreliable 579 00:24:20,270 --> 00:24:17,430 tales is no better than one unreliable 580 00:24:22,550 --> 00:24:20,280 tale it's all hollow when it comes to 581 00:24:25,190 --> 00:24:22,560 local ghost and monster tales the 582 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:25,200 stories just exist and it is unclear 583 00:24:30,410 --> 00:24:27,570 where they originated such tales are 584 00:24:32,810 --> 00:24:30,420 great as local folklore a problem arises 585 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:32,820 when these anecdotes are elevated to 586 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:35,610 evidence there is an over-reliance on 587 00:24:40,460 --> 00:24:37,290 anecdotes in the paranormal community 588 00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:40,470 for hauntings cryptozoology and ufology 589 00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:43,710 as the basis of Investigation a case 590 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:45,240 we'll start with an observation but if 591 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:47,490 that is all that it is with no physical 592 00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:50,250 evidence no verification and a cold 593 00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:52,440 trail left to follow there is nothing 594 00:24:57,860 --> 00:24:55,350 you can do with it but document it had 595 00:25:00,980 --> 00:24:57,870 your own experience cherish it as your 596 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:00,990 own I just can't help you and it's a bit 597 00:25:05,450 --> 00:25:03,390 rude to put me on the spot you had the 598 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:05,460 experience it's up to you to provide 599 00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:07,770 evidence to support it not for me to 600 00:25:23,370 --> 00:25:21,120 did you see that UFO sighting that made 601 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:23,380 the news what did that latest study 602 00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:25,090 about alternative treatments really say 603 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:27,520 is this photo making the rounds real or 604 00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:30,490 hoax doubtful news is a unique website 605 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:32,350 featuring news about pseudoscience the 606 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:34,510 paranormal anomalies and questionable 607 00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:36,210 claims framed with the skeptical view 608 00:25:41,910 --> 00:25:39,460 come visit doleful newscom every day for 609 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:41,920 news about cryptozoology conspiracies 610 00:25:47,550 --> 00:25:45,070 shams scams and more follow us on 611 00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:47,560 twitter at doubtful news critical 612 00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:49,120 thinking is essential in assessing 613 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:51,400 today's news duffel news helps you 614 00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:00,030 have you heard the one about how the 615 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:01,960 illuminati in conjunction with the US 616 00:26:05,370 --> 00:26:03,490 government are hiding the existence of 617 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:05,380 aliens in order to ensure the supply of 618 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:07,570 helium is kept low although the CIA the 619 00:26:10,770 --> 00:26:09,010 militant wing of the Freemasons are 620 00:26:12,210 --> 00:26:10,780 working with the elders of zion to take 621 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:12,220 control of the population of the world 622 00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:14,710 through fluoridated chemtrails canberra 623 00:26:17,970 --> 00:26:16,510 skeptics incorporated on behalf of the 624 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:17,980 shadow government will be massing an 625 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:19,690 array of dark forces for the australian 626 00:26:23,970 --> 00:26:22,240 skeptics national convention 2013 this 627 00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:23,980 convention has conspired to coincide 628 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:25,660 with the 50th anniversary of the 629 00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:27,910 assassination of John F Kennedy possibly 630 00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:29,590 the most famous conspiracy theory of all 631 00:26:33,450 --> 00:26:31,630 time if you've ever wanted to learn 632 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:33,460 about the truth behind the death of JFK 633 00:26:37,290 --> 00:26:35,410 what makes for a good conspiracy theory 634 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:37,300 and why they are so prevalent Canberra 635 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:39,310 skeptics invites you to attend that is 636 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:41,050 of course should you choose to accept it 637 00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:44,050 come to national skeptics convention org 638 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:46,630 and just remember they will be watching 639 00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:54,299 now it's time for dr. Rachel reports 640 00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:00,159 with dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners 641 00:27:04,529 --> 00:27:02,799 and welcome to dr. Reggie reports well 642 00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:04,539 this week I'm talking to a real 643 00:27:09,659 --> 00:27:07,510 scientist actually dr. david hawks who 644 00:27:12,779 --> 00:27:09,669 is a medical virologist at the flory 645 00:27:14,909 --> 00:27:12,789 institute in melbourne australia has 646 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:14,919 just published a paper on the HPV 647 00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:18,370 vaccine with two colleagues of mine as 648 00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:20,559 well in fact who are from the stop the 649 00:27:24,659 --> 00:27:22,480 Australian vaccination network facebook 650 00:27:26,789 --> 00:27:24,669 page or s avian and I've got David on 651 00:27:30,149 --> 00:27:26,799 the line now from Melbourne hi David 652 00:27:34,019 --> 00:27:30,159 thanks for joining us I Rachel welcome 653 00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:34,029 to the skeptic zone podcast Thanks now 654 00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:35,769 I'm this paper that you've published 655 00:27:40,850 --> 00:27:37,980 this week it is in the journal 656 00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:40,860 infectious agents in cancer it's 657 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:44,380 answering a human papilloma vaccine 658 00:27:50,519 --> 00:27:48,130 concerns a matter of science and time so 659 00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:50,529 um I will go into a little bit of what 660 00:27:54,690 --> 00:27:52,960 you've covered in the paper in a moment 661 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:54,700 it's a review paper of the evidence 662 00:28:00,210 --> 00:27:57,250 supporting that on the efficacy and a 663 00:28:02,879 --> 00:28:00,220 safety of HPV vaccine but just as way of 664 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:02,889 a bit of background let's talk about how 665 00:28:07,919 --> 00:28:06,130 this came about because this paper came 666 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:07,929 about because you saw someone else had 667 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:09,730 published something about HPV when she 668 00:28:13,740 --> 00:28:12,250 thought was wrong is that right yeah 669 00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:13,750 what happens it was actually in the same 670 00:28:17,159 --> 00:28:15,580 journal in the beginning of februari 671 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:17,169 there was a letter to the editor of 672 00:28:24,539 --> 00:28:21,330 written by some well-known anti-vaccine 673 00:28:27,930 --> 00:28:24,549 and i'll use the term loosely scientists 674 00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:27,940 and essentially it was it was a letter 675 00:28:30,870 --> 00:28:29,350 to the editor and i think the thing that 676 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:30,880 sort of triggered it was it it was a 677 00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:33,130 journal that has an open review process 678 00:28:36,779 --> 00:28:35,590 so you can see the reviewers comments 679 00:28:39,419 --> 00:28:36,789 and things like that so I looked it up 680 00:28:42,539 --> 00:28:39,429 and I realized with about 15 minutes 681 00:28:44,669 --> 00:28:42,549 research that the article itself was 682 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:44,679 just a bunch of you know recycled 683 00:28:48,870 --> 00:28:46,090 vaccine questions that have been 684 00:28:51,180 --> 00:28:48,880 answered but the one of the reviewers 685 00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:51,190 had nautical with one of the well with 686 00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:53,500 two of the the authors of this article 687 00:28:57,570 --> 00:28:55,480 three months beforehand and worked in 688 00:29:00,419 --> 00:28:57,580 the same Institute and in his comments 689 00:29:03,379 --> 00:29:00,429 he wrote awesome article fantastic I 690 00:29:07,039 --> 00:29:03,389 have no conflict of interest and that 691 00:29:09,889 --> 00:29:07,049 so it was yeah so that's what triggered 692 00:29:12,109 --> 00:29:09,899 a conversation with one of the editors 693 00:29:14,089 --> 00:29:12,119 in chief with the with the journal and 694 00:29:16,999 --> 00:29:14,099 originally we were going to put in a 695 00:29:19,579 --> 00:29:17,009 letter to the editor sort of sort of you 696 00:29:22,190 --> 00:29:19,589 know address these concerns and through 697 00:29:24,859 --> 00:29:22,200 a bunch of different reasons which I'm 698 00:29:28,099 --> 00:29:24,869 sort of in light of what's happened in 699 00:29:29,930 --> 00:29:28,109 the last week I think I wasn't quite as 700 00:29:31,579 --> 00:29:29,940 smart as I thought I was we managed to 701 00:29:33,739 --> 00:29:31,589 getting upgraded from a letter to the 702 00:29:36,289 --> 00:29:33,749 editor to an actual full review article 703 00:29:37,639 --> 00:29:36,299 yeah and tell me about the rat bags 704 00:29:40,009 --> 00:29:37,649 you've got on the paper with you because 705 00:29:41,569 --> 00:29:40,019 I happen to know them as well and you 706 00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:41,579 met them through social media is that 707 00:29:47,209 --> 00:29:44,849 correct yes I I've been a member of the 708 00:29:50,599 --> 00:29:47,219 well active on the stop the avian 709 00:29:53,209 --> 00:29:50,609 website since about 2009 and I went to I 710 00:29:57,499 --> 00:29:53,219 met up with them one of my co-authors 711 00:29:59,839 --> 00:29:57,509 Candace at a function beginning of last 712 00:30:01,219 --> 00:29:59,849 year we sort of hit it off and there was 713 00:30:02,629 --> 00:30:01,229 always this discussion about i will 714 00:30:04,579 --> 00:30:02,639 write a paper together sometime an 715 00:30:07,629 --> 00:30:04,589 epidemiologist neurologist they can't be 716 00:30:10,099 --> 00:30:07,639 that many of them around and then we 717 00:30:13,459 --> 00:30:10,109 there was a guy called matt Berryman who 718 00:30:15,619 --> 00:30:13,469 is a data model in wollongong and in his 719 00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:15,629 past life is actually co authored an 720 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:17,279 article on cancer so I was sort of 721 00:30:20,539 --> 00:30:19,049 you've got a virologist an 722 00:30:22,489 --> 00:30:20,549 epidemiologist in someone with a 723 00:30:24,619 --> 00:30:22,499 background in cancer so it just seemed 724 00:30:26,180 --> 00:30:24,629 like a really novel way to actually 725 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:26,190 write an article and I guess that's the 726 00:30:30,109 --> 00:30:27,809 thing as I'm oh and early career 727 00:30:31,699 --> 00:30:30,119 researcher so it's a really competitive 728 00:30:34,549 --> 00:30:31,709 environment so if you can actually form 729 00:30:35,869 --> 00:30:34,559 collaborations with people through sort 730 00:30:37,789 --> 00:30:35,879 of social media we've got a shared 731 00:30:39,589 --> 00:30:37,799 interest this is sort of from an 732 00:30:41,629 --> 00:30:39,599 academic point of view it's really 733 00:30:43,999 --> 00:30:41,639 fascinating you know it's come out with 734 00:30:45,889 --> 00:30:44,009 what I think is a paper that we're quite 735 00:30:47,539 --> 00:30:45,899 proud of yeah I mean that the sort of 736 00:30:49,129 --> 00:30:47,549 serendipitous nature of the way this 737 00:30:51,349 --> 00:30:49,139 collaboration happened i think is really 738 00:30:52,849 --> 00:30:51,359 interesting and i guess it started 739 00:30:54,979 --> 00:30:52,859 because an anti-rattle said something 740 00:30:57,319 --> 00:30:54,989 wrong on the internet essentially and 741 00:30:58,579 --> 00:30:57,329 you guys decided to get together and do 742 00:31:00,589 --> 00:30:58,589 something about it and i think that 743 00:31:02,749 --> 00:31:00,599 you're right and this is a way that you 744 00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:02,759 know when you have academics that you 745 00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:04,769 work with say what's the use of Twitter 746 00:31:07,969 --> 00:31:06,329 or not to use of Facebook well this is a 747 00:31:09,889 --> 00:31:07,979 very good example of that isn't it 748 00:31:14,269 --> 00:31:09,899 absolutely and I mean the thing is you a 749 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:14,279 lot of a lot I say much the stuff antav 750 00:31:17,860 --> 00:31:16,130 actors say is either wrong what 751 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:17,870 he picked and the rest of it they don't 752 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:21,110 actually say but it's it's never the 753 00:31:24,550 --> 00:31:22,490 conversations with the editor-in-chief 754 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:24,560 are quite interesting because his take 755 00:31:29,170 --> 00:31:26,930 on was that is Italian and he says that 756 00:31:31,210 --> 00:31:29,180 a lot of the GPS he interacts with are a 757 00:31:33,010 --> 00:31:31,220 bit worried about the vaccine because in 758 00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:33,020 Australia was accepted really readily 759 00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:36,080 and it was an invention and so was never 760 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:37,760 an issue but I mean I've spoken to 761 00:31:41,110 --> 00:31:38,930 people from Europe and there was always 762 00:31:43,630 --> 00:31:41,120 this all it's a bit new let's give it a 763 00:31:46,030 --> 00:31:43,640 few you know we're not exactly sure and 764 00:31:47,290 --> 00:31:46,040 people ask these questions would you 765 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:47,300 know I've got in the paper and it was 766 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:49,370 about let's write this article let's 767 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:50,930 write it for an informed audience so 768 00:31:54,940 --> 00:31:53,510 it's not just purely a virology point of 769 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:54,950 view and epidemiology is putting 770 00:32:00,520 --> 00:31:58,010 together in a format that we can give to 771 00:32:03,850 --> 00:32:00,530 a GP or someone with a bit of an 772 00:32:06,490 --> 00:32:03,860 informed view of the topic vaccine take 773 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:06,500 TV cancel whichever way you want to go 774 00:32:09,790 --> 00:32:08,330 with it and then they can kind of go 775 00:32:11,770 --> 00:32:09,800 when someone asked them a question they 776 00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:11,780 can look at it and go more there's the 777 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:13,760 answer they don't have to go and crawl 778 00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:15,290 through you know an academic review 779 00:32:18,730 --> 00:32:17,120 which probably looks at maybe a certain 780 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:18,740 angle of it rather than sort of 781 00:32:22,690 --> 00:32:21,110 answering the questions that GPS in the 782 00:32:24,690 --> 00:32:22,700 general public are actually doing yeah 783 00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:24,700 so just on that issue then of 784 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:26,840 anti-vaxxers and HPV what are some of 785 00:32:30,370 --> 00:32:28,370 the things that they have said about the 786 00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:30,380 HPV vaccine that's been as you say 787 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:33,110 incorrect or wrong most that's the stuff 788 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:34,930 they said is being correct or wrong but 789 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:38,510 can you be specific yeah there's this 790 00:32:42,190 --> 00:32:40,250 sort of a couple of areas the first is 791 00:32:43,510 --> 00:32:42,200 there's a lot of fuss about how it got 792 00:32:45,190 --> 00:32:43,520 approved and things like that and to be 793 00:32:47,470 --> 00:32:45,200 honest with you I'm a scientist I don't 794 00:32:49,330 --> 00:32:47,480 you know if I start getting worried 795 00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:49,340 about how certain things are pushed 796 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:51,320 through laws and regulations it's it's 797 00:32:54,850 --> 00:32:53,210 just confusing what I wanted to look at 798 00:32:56,890 --> 00:32:54,860 was the actual science so that and the 799 00:32:59,080 --> 00:32:56,900 questions generally are to do with the 800 00:33:00,490 --> 00:32:59,090 adverse events there's been heaps of 801 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:00,500 stuff that and I think because it's the 802 00:33:03,370 --> 00:33:01,970 sexually transmitted disease in a 803 00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:03,380 sexually transmitted disease with a 804 00:33:07,540 --> 00:33:05,600 vaccine you give to 12 and 13 year old 805 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:07,550 girls it's sort of hit into that sort of 806 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:09,890 Christian Right fundamentalist that you 807 00:33:13,510 --> 00:33:11,450 know occurs in the States and that was 808 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:13,520 probably exacerbated by a number of 809 00:33:18,010 --> 00:33:16,130 states making it compulsory so the 810 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:18,020 questions are generally are you know it 811 00:33:21,850 --> 00:33:20,210 causes ms it kills people it's the big 812 00:33:24,250 --> 00:33:21,860 one it kills people it's got all these 813 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:24,260 bad adverse effects and I came across 814 00:33:29,950 --> 00:33:26,510 some fantastic really interesting data 815 00:33:32,649 --> 00:33:29,960 like in Australia we when we first had 816 00:33:35,289 --> 00:33:32,659 the the HPV vaccine we've had reports of 817 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:35,299 I think in the first year about 750 818 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:37,730 adverse reactions in the first couple of 819 00:33:41,919 --> 00:33:40,010 years they gave 1.9 million girls the 820 00:33:45,460 --> 00:33:41,929 dough so it's it's not that high the 821 00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:45,470 next year it was about 450 yeah probably 822 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:47,600 a similar amount of people but what I 823 00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:49,130 found even more interesting was in 824 00:33:54,460 --> 00:33:51,049 Australia I think so if I get the 825 00:33:56,830 --> 00:33:54,470 numbers right it's about 23 adverse 826 00:34:00,250 --> 00:33:56,840 reactions 400,000 people death of Jack 827 00:34:04,299 --> 00:34:00,260 seen in the US it's about 56 it's 828 00:34:06,580 --> 00:34:04,309 exactly the same vaccine we're pretty 829 00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:06,590 homogeneous there's no sort of racial or 830 00:34:11,619 --> 00:34:09,679 genetic bias as purely on how people 831 00:34:13,899 --> 00:34:11,629 interpret or people will look for 832 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:13,909 something to blame on the vaccine like 833 00:34:19,839 --> 00:34:16,190 there was a paper that looked at death's 834 00:34:22,450 --> 00:34:19,849 then there was 32 deaths reported and 835 00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:22,460 they found that 12 of them they couldn't 836 00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,520 find a person or a death so the the 837 00:34:28,690 --> 00:34:27,440 system in the US the Bears is open to 838 00:34:30,849 --> 00:34:28,700 anyone anyone could write something down 839 00:34:32,260 --> 00:34:30,859 this you can have a lot of fun and 840 00:34:34,060 --> 00:34:32,270 create some quite humorous adverse 841 00:34:36,820 --> 00:34:34,070 events if you're that way inclined but 842 00:34:38,399 --> 00:34:36,830 it also doesn't filter and then they say 843 00:34:41,530 --> 00:34:38,409 quite blatantly that this is just 844 00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:41,540 mass-produced you know reporting and 845 00:34:45,490 --> 00:34:42,889 it's not really that useful with an 846 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:45,500 investigation so back to these deaths 847 00:34:49,990 --> 00:34:46,970 the guys investigated and they found 848 00:34:52,690 --> 00:34:50,000 that it was up to only twenty they could 849 00:34:55,089 --> 00:34:52,700 locate and of the twenty one of them was 850 00:34:56,619 --> 00:34:55,099 like a prescription drug overdose there 851 00:34:59,079 --> 00:34:56,629 was no cluster I think there were six 852 00:35:00,730 --> 00:34:59,089 would do to cardiovascular events and so 853 00:35:02,650 --> 00:35:00,740 there was no slip of causation all and 854 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:02,660 they did the stats and was no different 855 00:35:08,829 --> 00:35:05,810 than the unvaccinated population but the 856 00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:08,839 other thing they noticed was the I think 857 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:11,119 the average time I'm hoping I'm get the 858 00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:12,970 numbers right the average time from 859 00:35:17,650 --> 00:35:15,680 vaccination to when the first symptom 860 00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:17,660 appear that led to this death was about 861 00:35:22,660 --> 00:35:20,750 five months right so you get the vaccine 862 00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:22,670 on January the first and sometime in 863 00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,000 late May you you feel a bit wonky so 864 00:35:31,329 --> 00:35:29,119 it's it's just people with looking for 865 00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:31,339 something to blame and this vaccine was 866 00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,670 new it was contentious was in the news 867 00:35:39,730 --> 00:35:36,560 in this is where I think a lot of these 868 00:35:41,770 --> 00:35:39,740 these myths and and have come from a 869 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:41,780 number of organizations make a hell of a 870 00:35:45,460 --> 00:35:42,170 lot of 871 00:35:46,839 --> 00:35:45,470 the from scare tactics I've sort of 872 00:35:48,819 --> 00:35:46,849 found myself in the position through 873 00:35:51,309 --> 00:35:48,829 there and I'm sure you have as well as 874 00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:51,319 that I'm a I'm a molecular scientist I 875 00:35:56,049 --> 00:35:53,750 spent five years in a the the second 876 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:56,059 highest level of biological containment 877 00:36:00,220 --> 00:35:58,010 working with HIV and I didn't really 878 00:36:02,260 --> 00:36:00,230 speak to a lot of people so when 879 00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:02,270 actually went out and started and it was 880 00:36:05,829 --> 00:36:03,740 a sort of when I was finishing that in 881 00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:05,839 transitioning into neuroscience that I I 882 00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:07,849 sort of started talking to people about 883 00:36:14,260 --> 00:36:11,900 stuff and realizing that people it's 884 00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:14,270 this confusion I think Bengal they could 885 00:36:17,589 --> 00:36:16,040 put it great that the Daily Mail in the 886 00:36:18,940 --> 00:36:17,599 UK is dividing the world into things 887 00:36:20,349 --> 00:36:18,950 that cause cancer and things of cure 888 00:36:22,359 --> 00:36:20,359 cancer and that's how a lot of people 889 00:36:25,150 --> 00:36:22,369 view it they sort of Carol a clinical 890 00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:25,160 trials Jonas this then that that size 891 00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:27,710 that in scientists is evidence at 892 00:36:32,109 --> 00:36:30,200 edifice and I think that trying to 893 00:36:34,270 --> 00:36:32,119 explain to people what these these 894 00:36:35,890 --> 00:36:34,280 results actually mean in terms of if you 895 00:36:37,870 --> 00:36:35,900 have a vaccine in you have a car 896 00:36:40,059 --> 00:36:37,880 accident on the way home would you 897 00:36:42,970 --> 00:36:40,069 consider that a vaccine event and they 898 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:42,980 go Noah said but according to all the 899 00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:45,530 way that you put data in you would and 900 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:48,049 that's how I sort of try and explain you 901 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:49,730 know the the correlation versus the 902 00:36:56,020 --> 00:36:52,450 causation which is sort of a very off 903 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:56,030 cited phrase tokenized ask you something 904 00:36:59,770 --> 00:36:57,170 as a crackle going on in the background 905 00:37:02,440 --> 00:36:59,780 are you playing the panel something now 906 00:37:04,030 --> 00:37:02,450 I have a eight month old English 907 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:04,040 Springer Spaniel that won't leave me 908 00:37:10,569 --> 00:37:09,260 alone so he's chewing on a tennis ball 909 00:37:12,579 --> 00:37:10,579 and hopefully that will keep him out the 910 00:37:14,740 --> 00:37:12,589 way but I do apologize i'm home alone 911 00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:14,750 and he he doesn't like being locked out 912 00:37:18,609 --> 00:37:16,700 of the mine oh okay no that's fine i 913 00:37:23,349 --> 00:37:18,619 could just hear some funny noise but not 914 00:37:24,849 --> 00:37:23,359 know what okay so with respect to the 915 00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:24,859 four questions you've addressed in the 916 00:37:28,750 --> 00:37:26,180 paper the first one you've looked at is 917 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:28,760 does vaccination against HPV prevent 918 00:37:32,589 --> 00:37:31,130 infection with the virus tell us what 919 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:32,599 you found out about that well yeah I 920 00:37:36,099 --> 00:37:34,250 mean one of the reasons I actually 921 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:36,109 phrase that is because people talk about 922 00:37:40,990 --> 00:37:38,450 our vaccines prevent death and vaccines 923 00:37:43,870 --> 00:37:41,000 prevent cancerous like vaccines prevent 924 00:37:45,370 --> 00:37:43,880 the diseases they target and we found 925 00:37:47,380 --> 00:37:45,380 that you know when we looked at all the 926 00:37:50,349 --> 00:37:47,390 data and there's been seven clinical 927 00:37:52,210 --> 00:37:50,359 trials tackling 45 involving 44,000 928 00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,220 women that when you give the vaccine to 929 00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:54,079 people that are naive those that haven't 930 00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:55,510 been exposed to HPV 931 00:38:01,440 --> 00:37:58,240 you get a greater than ninety percent 932 00:38:02,850 --> 00:38:01,450 reduction in infection and that's that 933 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:02,860 includes people that maybe didn't get 934 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:04,510 all three doses they got at least one 935 00:38:08,670 --> 00:38:06,310 dose but they didn't get all three doses 936 00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:08,680 and they didn't have HPV so it's 937 00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:10,150 probably the most accurate model of 938 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:11,320 what's actually going to happen in 939 00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:13,290 reality with 12 13 year old kids 940 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:16,510 probably not going to have HPV a bunch 941 00:38:20,580 --> 00:38:18,010 of them are probably going to miss one 942 00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:20,590 of the injections or not follow up so 943 00:38:26,370 --> 00:38:23,020 with respect to that for example there 944 00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:26,380 was a researcher rather a PhD student at 945 00:38:31,020 --> 00:38:28,630 the University of Wollongong his name is 946 00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:31,030 Judy Wiley man who insists that because 947 00:38:35,070 --> 00:38:33,160 this particular vaccine only prevents 948 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:35,080 about seventy percent of the viruses 949 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:37,450 that cause HPV therefore it's useless 950 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:40,450 how do you explain that that is wrong if 951 00:38:44,070 --> 00:38:42,610 you just follow and I'll talk about this 952 00:38:46,110 --> 00:38:44,080 load but if you just say that it only 953 00:38:49,380 --> 00:38:46,120 targets the two strains which cause 954 00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:49,390 cervical cancer 16 and eight any only 955 00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:51,280 look at cervical cancer it will prevent 956 00:38:56,550 --> 00:38:53,110 probably around seventy percent of 957 00:38:58,140 --> 00:38:56,560 deaths there's over 200 cervical cancer 958 00:39:01,080 --> 00:38:58,150 deaths in Australia each year so that's 959 00:39:03,060 --> 00:39:01,090 about 150 women's lives are saved but 960 00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:03,070 then you look at it out instead of you 961 00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:04,480 know you've got that too and a hundred 962 00:39:08,910 --> 00:39:06,640 thousand women between 20 and 69 963 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:08,920 developed cervical can die of cervical 964 00:39:13,290 --> 00:39:11,410 cancer but it's about eight or nine out 965 00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:13,300 of a hundred thousand developed cervical 966 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:15,400 cancer and on top of that then you've 967 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:19,330 got that's 72 out of 100,000 developed 968 00:39:25,050 --> 00:39:21,370 sort of these cervical intraepithelial 969 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:25,060 neoplasia type 3 which are the sort of 970 00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:26,890 the pre cancer markers that you know get 971 00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:28,300 picked up on a pap smear and have to be 972 00:39:32,850 --> 00:39:30,910 burnt off and can often cause problems 973 00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:32,860 with cervix in terms of women who want 974 00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:34,720 to have children and then there's this 975 00:39:40,890 --> 00:39:38,260 steamroller effect so yeah I I think off 976 00:39:42,930 --> 00:39:40,900 the top of my head saving 150 women each 977 00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:42,940 year is worth it but if you actually 978 00:39:46,350 --> 00:39:44,350 look at it in terms of the knockdown 979 00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:46,360 effect these are just the deaths you've 980 00:39:50,910 --> 00:39:48,880 got four and a half times that many 981 00:39:54,270 --> 00:39:50,920 people who actually get cancer and then 982 00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:54,280 eight times as many gets stin three and 983 00:40:01,110 --> 00:39:58,000 then 20 times as many get sin 2 which is 984 00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:01,120 the the categories of the precancerous 985 00:40:05,130 --> 00:40:03,280 lesion so I think that you could 986 00:40:07,380 --> 00:40:05,140 probably make a really strong financial 987 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:07,390 case that is just working there but the 988 00:40:11,310 --> 00:40:08,890 other thing is I'm a medical 989 00:40:12,930 --> 00:40:11,320 search I kind of don't like keeping up 990 00:40:15,570 --> 00:40:12,940 on anything and this seems like a pretty 991 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:15,580 easy cheers mmm so one of the other 992 00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:17,050 things you discussed in your review was 993 00:40:21,510 --> 00:40:18,790 whether this vaccination will cause a 994 00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:21,520 compensatory rise in other non vaccine 995 00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:24,040 HPV types what's the evidence out there 996 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:26,500 to suggest that won't be the case I 997 00:40:30,810 --> 00:40:28,810 spent my life working on HIV for five 998 00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:30,820 years and you certainly see different 999 00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:32,800 sentencing drug you know when you add a 1000 00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:34,630 drug you get different strains of HIV 1001 00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:36,070 coming up and so this was something I 1002 00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:37,180 thought was really interesting to 1003 00:40:42,690 --> 00:40:39,580 investigate so there's about 15 strains 1004 00:40:44,970 --> 00:40:42,700 it's over 100 types of HIV HPV sorry 1005 00:40:47,310 --> 00:40:44,980 there's about 15 that cause cancer the 1006 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:47,320 all the vaccines target the two most 1007 00:40:51,810 --> 00:40:49,450 common causes of cervical cancer 16 and 1008 00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:51,820 18 but then if you actually look at the 1009 00:40:56,070 --> 00:40:53,680 vaccines they actually significantly 1010 00:40:58,650 --> 00:40:56,080 reduce infection with a further five of 1011 00:41:01,530 --> 00:40:58,660 these cancer-causing and the severity 1012 00:41:04,530 --> 00:41:01,540 that only targets to cancer strains 1013 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:04,540 actually gets a further two so all of 1014 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:06,850 both vaccines tied at seven strains and 1015 00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:08,860 reduce them so that's half the cancer 1016 00:41:13,710 --> 00:41:11,200 one is reduced and then one of them can 1017 00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:13,720 target an extra two and that means okay 1018 00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:15,760 they reduce those but to those other 1019 00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:17,740 nine go up and there's nothing that 1020 00:41:21,180 --> 00:41:19,260 shows that they go up there's no 1021 00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:21,190 significant difference in the rate of 1022 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:23,200 infection of any of the other 1023 00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:25,330 cancer-causing strains so it not only 1024 00:41:29,490 --> 00:41:27,520 none of them go up to compensate for 1025 00:41:32,460 --> 00:41:29,500 this sort of gap with the 16 and 18 1026 00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:32,470 caused infections but the half of them 1027 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:33,760 actually go down because they're close 1028 00:41:38,010 --> 00:41:35,370 enough related that the vaccine works 1029 00:41:40,020 --> 00:41:38,020 recently efficiently on them as well Wow 1030 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:40,030 so are you saying that vaccines work 1031 00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:43,930 Dave yeah who woulda thunk ER did you 1032 00:41:48,540 --> 00:41:45,670 know hundred use a science and I think 1033 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:48,550 was that there was over 200 human 1034 00:41:53,820 --> 00:41:51,850 clinical trials since on the HPV vaccine 1035 00:41:56,220 --> 00:41:53,830 and it's been registered for I think 1036 00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:56,230 seven years so that people are still 1037 00:42:00,510 --> 00:41:58,330 looking at things but the evidence seems 1038 00:42:02,670 --> 00:42:00,520 pretty strong for this one and most of 1039 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:02,680 the other ones as well so um can you 1040 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:04,120 explain to our listeners and why is it 1041 00:42:07,830 --> 00:42:06,130 being given to males because some people 1042 00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:07,840 don't seem to understand is that it's 1043 00:42:13,020 --> 00:42:09,910 not you don't just have to have a cervix 1044 00:42:15,150 --> 00:42:13,030 to get this vaccine do you know I this 1045 00:42:18,930 --> 00:42:15,160 to Bree since the first is that you know 1046 00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:18,940 women contract HPV generally from men 1047 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:22,240 because most women have 1048 00:42:25,950 --> 00:42:23,890 sex with men you know men can be this 1049 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:25,960 reservoir of HPV so if you stop them 1050 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:28,450 getting it then women can't get it and 1051 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:30,450 that in itself is a pretty good reason 1052 00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:32,770 it's sort of you know becoming a bit of 1053 00:42:38,460 --> 00:42:35,860 sort of sexual herd immunity hmm but the 1054 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:38,470 other the other reason is that HPV is 1055 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:39,970 certainly linked with ninety nine point 1056 00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:42,400 seven percent of cervical cancers what 1057 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:43,840 most people don't know is that it's 1058 00:42:47,790 --> 00:42:46,030 linked to ninety percent of anal cancers 1059 00:42:50,609 --> 00:42:47,800 I think it's forty percent of penis 1060 00:42:54,090 --> 00:42:50,619 cancers and my disguise have both of 1061 00:42:56,930 --> 00:42:54,100 those things and pretty much they're not 1062 00:42:59,280 --> 00:42:56,940 places you really want to get cancer 1063 00:43:01,010 --> 00:42:59,290 you've also got twelve percent of auto 1064 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:01,020 larynx so that's sort of the throat 1065 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:03,250 cancers are linked to HIV and three 1066 00:43:08,490 --> 00:43:04,810 percent of mouth cancer so you've got 1067 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:08,500 these cancers that you know certainly 1068 00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:11,290 affect men and their 40 and ninety 1069 00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:14,830 percent is a really significant number 1070 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:17,200 that you know you could reduce with with 1071 00:43:20,460 --> 00:43:19,210 a vaccine Wow so just finally the last 1072 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:20,470 thing you looked at obviously was the 1073 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:23,290 safety profile of HPV and in asking you 1074 00:43:26,820 --> 00:43:25,090 that question can you can you approach 1075 00:43:29,609 --> 00:43:26,830 that from the perspective of explaining 1076 00:43:31,620 --> 00:43:29,619 to us why Japan has pulled HPV yeah 1077 00:43:33,090 --> 00:43:31,630 Japan hasn't actually pulled the back 1078 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:33,100 seen what they've actually done is said 1079 00:43:36,090 --> 00:43:34,810 the government's going to stop giving it 1080 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:36,100 it's not it's still going to be 1081 00:43:38,730 --> 00:43:37,450 available if you go into your doctoring 1082 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:38,740 you want you can go and get it but 1083 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:39,850 they're just stopping their program 1084 00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:41,290 whether they're actually causing it 1085 00:43:47,130 --> 00:43:44,800 because it had a variety of essentially 1086 00:43:48,930 --> 00:43:47,140 these adverse reactions and from what 1087 00:43:50,370 --> 00:43:48,940 I've read now I've not had a chance the 1088 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:50,380 last two days to read too much about it 1089 00:43:54,990 --> 00:43:52,090 but it seems to be sort of pain or 1090 00:43:56,970 --> 00:43:55,000 temporary paralysis and the sort of 1091 00:43:58,859 --> 00:43:56,980 things that are there this sort of 1092 00:44:00,120 --> 00:43:58,869 difficult to understand we don't know 1093 00:44:01,950 --> 00:44:00,130 what causes a lot of these things 1094 00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:01,960 generally and so for it to be caused by 1095 00:44:06,750 --> 00:44:05,320 vaccine is it's possible but the the 1096 00:44:08,130 --> 00:44:06,760 government's showing what I think is a 1097 00:44:09,750 --> 00:44:08,140 bit of due diligence I think they're 1098 00:44:11,730 --> 00:44:09,760 kind of going the vaccine was only 1099 00:44:14,099 --> 00:44:11,740 introduced in Japan relatively recently 1100 00:44:16,109 --> 00:44:14,109 so as I sort of said about Australia you 1101 00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:16,119 kind of get this nervy of the first 1102 00:44:19,380 --> 00:44:17,680 round of people getting the vaccine and 1103 00:44:21,690 --> 00:44:19,390 having this higher rate of adverse 1104 00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:21,700 events so with without I think that's 1105 00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:23,350 what it is and i think that the japanese 1106 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:24,670 are just kind of going we're just going 1107 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:26,650 to stop we're going to have a look we're 1108 00:44:30,420 --> 00:44:27,970 going to actually investigate these 1109 00:44:32,310 --> 00:44:30,430 reports and we'll see where we stand but 1110 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:32,320 i mean it's the same vaccine as being in 1111 00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:34,210 Australia for six years it's the same 1112 00:44:39,810 --> 00:44:36,100 vaccine that's in the States 1113 00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:39,820 it's unlikely I never say never because 1114 00:44:45,450 --> 00:44:42,880 you know who knows I never say it's 1115 00:44:47,310 --> 00:44:45,460 unlikely to be causing these effects and 1116 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:47,320 they're not not anything we've actually 1117 00:44:51,540 --> 00:44:50,050 picked up I mean in Australia with in 1118 00:44:53,550 --> 00:44:51,550 the first couple of years they found a 1119 00:44:55,860 --> 00:44:53,560 high rate of fainting amongst teenage 1120 00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:55,870 girls who are getting the vaccine which 1121 00:45:00,090 --> 00:44:58,330 they kind of eventually put down to you 1122 00:45:02,310 --> 00:45:00,100 have a higher rate of fainting amongst 1123 00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:02,320 teenage girls you do get these odd 1124 00:45:06,930 --> 00:45:04,900 things particular with new vaccines and 1125 00:45:08,430 --> 00:45:06,940 particular with vaccines about diseases 1126 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:08,440 that you're not going to see for 10 or 1127 00:45:12,870 --> 00:45:11,770 20 years and that a sexually-transmitted 1128 00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:12,880 there's all these different things that 1129 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:15,430 play on people's minds can you tell us a 1130 00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:17,770 little bit about post sort of marketing 1131 00:45:21,660 --> 00:45:20,020 surveillance data so at this time with 1132 00:45:24,060 --> 00:45:21,670 this vaccine we're still collecting data 1133 00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:24,070 on safety of it aren't we yeah I mean 1134 00:45:27,510 --> 00:45:25,660 we're still collecting data and I 1135 00:45:30,450 --> 00:45:27,520 imagine we'll keep on collecting data 1136 00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:30,460 for a very long time the sort of looking 1137 00:45:36,270 --> 00:45:32,250 at these adverse reports and there was a 1138 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:36,280 study done in I think 2010 by Peter 1139 00:45:40,140 --> 00:45:38,110 McIntyre in Australia that looked at the 1140 00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:40,150 adverse events with the rollout of HPV 1141 00:45:46,310 --> 00:45:43,270 so this is that government or sort of 1142 00:45:48,570 --> 00:45:46,320 government funded study no links to 1143 00:45:51,660 --> 00:45:48,580 pharmaceutical companies looking at post 1144 00:45:54,810 --> 00:45:51,670 marketing they had 1394 adverse 1145 00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:54,820 reactions with 5.8 million doses 1146 00:46:00,200 --> 00:45:57,280 distributed so if every girl got three 1147 00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:00,210 doses is about 1.9 million people and 1148 00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:02,380 what they found was pretty much what 1149 00:46:06,570 --> 00:46:03,940 they've found with other studies that 1150 00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:06,580 you've got side effects but the pattern 1151 00:46:10,890 --> 00:46:08,470 ninety-four ninety-five percent of them 1152 00:46:13,230 --> 00:46:10,900 a minor so you saw arm your redness your 1153 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:13,240 injection site obviously you do get that 1154 00:46:17,220 --> 00:46:15,490 sort of fainting and headaches and the 1155 00:46:19,530 --> 00:46:17,230 general malaise last for a couple of 1156 00:46:21,510 --> 00:46:19,540 days that could or could not be due to 1157 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:21,520 the vaccine the only thing they found 1158 00:46:25,650 --> 00:46:24,010 was that there was some they found that 1159 00:46:27,330 --> 00:46:25,660 there was an increase in one particular 1160 00:46:29,580 --> 00:46:27,340 side effect and they found that it was 1161 00:46:33,390 --> 00:46:29,590 only New South Wales not in Victoria 1162 00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:33,400 which was strange in itself this side 1163 00:46:36,630 --> 00:46:35,230 effect occurred and they saying it's at 1164 00:46:38,610 --> 00:46:36,640 a rate higher than what they're 1165 00:46:41,580 --> 00:46:38,620 expecting but then when you looked at it 1166 00:46:43,650 --> 00:46:41,590 was actually 12 individuals as 12 girls 1167 00:46:45,930 --> 00:46:43,660 one of the possible sitex was this 1168 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:45,940 anaphylaxis which again is a fairly 1169 00:46:49,340 --> 00:46:47,850 common side effect because you know 1170 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:49,350 vaccines are made with eggs but they 1171 00:46:54,590 --> 00:46:51,450 found that it was his increased in New 1172 00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:54,600 South Wales it was 2.6 400,000 compared 1173 00:46:59,660 --> 00:46:57,570 with 0 point 5 in Victoria point so as 1174 00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,670 five times as high but there are only 12 1175 00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,160 cases so it's really hard to detect but 1176 00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:04,560 even if you dig in anaphylaxis and at 1177 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:06,000 all these girls recovered without a 1178 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:08,490 problem the rate for anaphylaxis pretty 1179 00:47:14,420 --> 00:47:10,890 much mirrors the exact same rate of 1180 00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:14,430 cervical cancer deaths so there's your 1181 00:47:18,140 --> 00:47:16,140 chance you've got a two and a hundred 1182 00:47:20,420 --> 00:47:18,150 thousand chance of getting an adverse an 1183 00:47:22,910 --> 00:47:20,430 anaphylactic reaction which we now are 1184 00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:22,920 aware of and monitor or you have exactly 1185 00:47:26,630 --> 00:47:24,480 the same risk when you don't get the 1186 00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:26,640 vaccine of of getting and dying of 1187 00:47:30,830 --> 00:47:28,800 cervical cancer alright Dave well I 1188 00:47:32,090 --> 00:47:30,840 might leave it there but um we want 1189 00:47:34,580 --> 00:47:32,100 everyone obviously to go and read your 1190 00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:34,590 paper it's open access so we can all see 1191 00:47:40,330 --> 00:47:37,260 it absolutely it's um it's freely 1192 00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:40,340 available it's at infectious agents and 1193 00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:42,960 cancer David Hawks on the first author 1194 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:45,420 at the moment where the where the top 1195 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:48,090 article where a little window with most 1196 00:47:51,890 --> 00:47:49,650 recent review and we're on that and 1197 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:51,900 please feel free to access that have a 1198 00:47:56,540 --> 00:47:53,970 read if you've got any questions i'm on 1199 00:47:59,150 --> 00:47:56,550 twitter at mr. Hawks so that's at mr. 1200 00:48:01,550 --> 00:47:59,160 Hawks and yet feel free to drop me a 1201 00:48:04,550 --> 00:48:01,560 line great well thanks David and I hope 1202 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:04,560 this is the first of many SI bien 1203 00:48:09,020 --> 00:48:07,290 related publications I'm in particular 1204 00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:09,030 because i don't think the avian have any 1205 00:48:14,060 --> 00:48:11,760 yet do they know i'm as i said i've been 1206 00:48:16,100 --> 00:48:14,070 involved in these stop the avian for 1207 00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:16,110 less than four out three and a half 1208 00:48:22,070 --> 00:48:18,960 years and we've got a publication 1209 00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:22,080 they've had the ABN for 19 years and an 1210 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:23,520 income of what is it about three hundred 1211 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:25,050 thousand dollars a year for a lot of 1212 00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:28,170 that time and still no publications so 1213 00:48:31,850 --> 00:48:30,630 are we are certainly value for money so 1214 00:48:34,340 --> 00:48:31,860 if the government wants to actually give 1215 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:34,350 us a grand I reckon look at my they'll 1216 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:35,970 get value for money for her that would 1217 00:48:40,610 --> 00:48:38,610 be fantastic alright well thank you go 1218 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:40,620 to david hawks who is a research officer 1219 00:48:45,470 --> 00:48:42,570 at the flory institute of neuroscience 1220 00:48:52,930 --> 00:48:45,480 of mental health in victoria nice thanks 1221 00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:55,760 hey guys this is jay from the skeptics 1222 00:48:59,810 --> 00:48:57,210 guide to the universe er whoa whoa whoa 1223 00:49:01,220 --> 00:48:59,820 hold on whoa everybody knows I'm the 1224 00:49:03,140 --> 00:49:01,230 only reason to listen to the Freak Show 1225 00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:03,150 right I mean it was up to me the show 1226 00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:09,030 would start with this yeah boy well 1227 00:49:13,310 --> 00:49:11,460 Rebecca would hate that probably but I 1228 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:13,320 mean I'd rock that listen to our show 1229 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:14,610 and you can learn about cool stuff like 1230 00:49:18,140 --> 00:49:16,410 a technological singularity which is 1231 00:49:19,670 --> 00:49:18,150 someday when technology progresses so 1232 00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:19,680 fast that it would make the Industrial 1233 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:21,060 Revolution look like a kid science 1234 00:49:47,180 --> 00:49:24,090 project anyway come check us out at WWDC 1235 00:49:50,910 --> 00:49:49,320 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1236 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:50,920 zone with the rain still pelting down 1237 00:49:56,790 --> 00:49:54,370 outside here in Sydney Australia folks I 1238 00:49:59,220 --> 00:49:56,800 can't wait I can't wait to get better 1239 00:50:03,600 --> 00:49:59,230 but I can't wait to get on that plane in 1240 00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:03,610 a week or so and head to the USA and get 1241 00:50:08,490 --> 00:50:05,920 ready for the amazing meeting in Las 1242 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:08,500 Vegas if you haven't bought your tickets 1243 00:50:13,350 --> 00:50:10,930 yet it's time to do so the amazing 1244 00:50:16,010 --> 00:50:13,360 meeting in Las Vegas meet James Randi DJ 1245 00:50:19,470 --> 00:50:16,020 Grothe and a host of other fabulous 1246 00:50:21,930 --> 00:50:19,480 skeptics I can't wait to get there i'll 1247 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:21,940 be doing water divining demonstrations 1248 00:50:25,590 --> 00:50:24,010 and power balance demonstrations in the 1249 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:25,600 hall i'll be giving a talk on the main 1250 00:50:32,130 --> 00:50:29,770 stage very exciting very exciting if you 1251 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:32,140 come along drop by and say hello and i 1252 00:50:36,420 --> 00:50:35,170 shall offer you a must stick in fact i 1253 00:50:40,170 --> 00:50:36,430 know some good friends of mine from 1254 00:50:42,990 --> 00:50:40,180 around Australia are also flying to the 1255 00:50:45,090 --> 00:50:43,000 amazing meeting and if you are I 1256 00:50:46,890 --> 00:50:45,100 encourage you friends from around 1257 00:50:49,110 --> 00:50:46,900 Australia bring the packet of must 1258 00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:49,120 explore than better I always run out 1259 00:50:55,650 --> 00:50:51,640 when I'm there because I know how how 1260 00:50:57,720 --> 00:50:55,660 much americans love to taste mastics yes 1261 00:50:59,850 --> 00:50:57,730 with that day yummy thought in my mind 1262 00:51:02,310 --> 00:50:59,860 it's time for me to say this is Richard 1263 00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:02,320 Saunders thanking you once again and 1264 00:51:12,930 --> 00:51:09,550 signing off from Sydney Australia you've 1265 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:12,940 been listening to the skeptic zone visit 1266 00:51:20,010 --> 00:51:17,530 her website at www skeptics on TV for